Talk:Elon Musk

Founder of Tesla

Elon Musk was one of the founders of Tesla, and that should be mentioned in the article, not that he was just an "early investor". Elon Musk has repeatedly claimed to have come up with the name "Tesla Motors", and the concept. He suggested it to Eberhard as they were both mildly involved(test driving and such) in another EV project called T-Zero. They did not own the rights to the name "Tesla Motors", since a guy called Brad Siewert had already registered it for his own company. While Elon officially didn't join the company before 6 months after Eberhard and Tarpenning had incorporated it, at the time the company was just a shell corp with no employees, no offices, no funding, no IP, no designs, no prototype, just this general idea of commercializing the T-Zero. First thing Elon Musk did after officially joining Tesla was to buy the rights to the name from Brad Siewert. Elon Musk was introduced to the T-Zero car by JB Straubel, who later became Tesla's first Chief Technology Officer. After experiencing the T-Zero, Musk was inspired and wanted to commercialize it, and the AC Propulsion guys(who made the T-Zero) connected him with Eberhard and Tarpenning, as they had the same idea. In Eberhard's lawsuit against Tesla, he wanted to be recognized as one of only two founders of the company(alongside Marc Tarpenning), a claim that was rejected by the judge. The judge struck down Eberhard's claim, and this decision was based on the broader context of Tesla's founding and the contributions of others, including Musk, JB Straubel, and Ian Wright, who were also considered integral to the company's early development. Obviously Eberhard has his own version of events, that are not compatible with Elon Musk's version, and the truth might be somewhere in the middle, but at the end of the day, this was dealt with in court, the court rejected Eberhard's claims, and concluded that Elon Musk was integral to the founding of Tesla... so, it seems only right that Wikipedia accept that there were(legally recognized) 5 founders of Tesla, including Elon Musk. I have not made any changes to the article, but just wanted to put this forward here, so others can evaluate whether to do so. FindTheBalance (talk) 21:49, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Musk was not a founder of Tesla. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:57, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

That's Eberhards narrative. It's easy to find plenty of articles that say the opposite, that Elon Musk was the founder of Tesla.

Here is Elon's perspective:

https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-debunks-tesla-history-fake-news/

Elon Musk came up with the name:

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/why-elon-musk-named-his-electric-car-tesla/

Elon Musk was one of the founders("Musk is also among the founders of Tesla,"):

https://www.reuters.com/article/tesla-suit-idUKN2131161020090921/

And again, the court ruled with Elon Musk, dismissed Eberhards claim that he and Tarpenning were the only founders. That should be the final word in this.

https://www.cnet.com/culture/teslas-musk-gloats-over-eberhard-ruling/

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-cofounder-eberhard-drops-his-lawsuit-against-tesla-musk-2009-8 FindTheBalance (talk) 01:05, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Thanks for sharing these good sources on Court ruling. Article needs to be updated to reflect this information. RogerYg (talk) 09:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

The article body has relevant details, but its not reflected in the Lead yet.

A 2009 lawsuit settlement with Eberhard designated Musk as a Tesla co-founder, along with Tarpenning and two others.

https://www.cnet.com/news/tesla-motors-founders-now-there-are-five/

https://www.fastcompany.com/1367866/tesla-lawsuit-drama-ends-five-company-founders-emerge RogerYg (talk) 09:39, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Added in lead as a separate sentence. "He is considered a co-founder of Tesla motors" with references. Other editors may consider whether to include it along with early investor mention. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 10:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Agree with User talk:Muboshgu. Existing article reflects norms followed on other, closely related Wikipedia articles.

Please do not make sweeping changes to a L5 BLP article without allowing for numerous participants to weigh in. 15:55, 7 December 2024 (UTC) QRep2020 (talk) 15:55, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

The article @Muboshgu linked to is simply repeating the rather misleading narrative that Eberhard promoted, but that claim was, as I pointed out, dismissed by Judge John L. Grandsaert after evaluating all the relevant facts. Even though Eberhard and Tarpenning *registered* the company a few months before Elon officially joined, it's fair to say that the company begun as they all got together, that's when they got funding, that's when they got the rights to the name, that's when they started developing plans, designs and eventually prototypes.

It seems to me that the most correct thing to do is to make a distinction between Eberhard and Tarpenning "incorporating" Tesla, and Eberhard, Tarpenning, Musk, Straubel and Wright being the founders of Tesla. FindTheBalance (talk) 21:46, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi FindTheBalance (talk), you seem very knowledgeable about this founder issue. Sadly knowledge alone is not valued on Wikipedia, we need good references / articles to back our knowledge.

I tried to briefly add that "Musk is one of the founders of Tesla" in the lead, with decent refernces, but it was taken down, as several editors seem to be against adding that to lead, even though its in the body.

I guess, we need more good references, and more TALK page support to get a fair lead on Tesla. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 19:09, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Also FindTheBalance (talk), probably you should start with Tesla wiki page first, and then try on this page. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 19:11, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I see that you are already working on Tesla page as well. Thanks. 20:35, 18 December 2024 (UTC) RogerYg (talk) 20:35, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Bio inaccuracies

According to Elon musk's biographer, this page has a lot of factual inaccuracies such as him never having received a degree.

See https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/the-truth-about-musk-from-his-biographer Sangaof (talk) 07:12, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, do they say he never received a degree? Slatersteven (talk) 10:40, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Crystal balling

Do we really need a list of posts he might get at some point in the future? Slatersteven (talk) 20:29, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

No, we don't. Not in an article as long as this already is. It's WP:UNDUE. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to Update Elon Musk’s Introduction to Include “Moderate-Right Political Influencer”

Elon Musk, known for his ventures in technology and business, has engaged in activities aligning with the moderate left and right leaning ideologies, despite his denials. Notable instances include:

• Endorsement of Germany’s AfD Party: Musk publicly supported the Alternative for Germany (AfD), a German political party. He stated that only the AfD can “save” Germany, aligning himself with their nationalist and anti-immigration stance.

• Platform Amplification of Right-leaning Figures: Under Musk’s leadership, X (formerly Twitter) has reinstated free-speech which was previously denied to right-leaning figures.

• Dissemination of Right-leaning Content: Musk has shared and engaged with content from right-leaning influencers, contributing to the normalization and dissemination of popular viewpoints which was previously vilified by mainstream media.

These actions demonstrate Musk’s alignment with the right-leaning ideologies, contradicting his public denials.

Proposed Change:

Current Introduction: “…is a businessman known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc. …”

Proposed Introduction: “…is a businessman and political influencer known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc. …”

Rationale:

Wikipedia strives to provide a comprehensive and neutral perspective on public figures. Musk’s endorsements of extremist political parties, amplification of far-right figures, and dissemination of far-right content are significant aspects of his public persona. Gnarledge (talk) 07:31, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Using the term “Far right” is simply an attempt to cast a slur against him. He was a democrat for most of his life and Musk has often been described as libertarian, but also describes himself as "politically moderate". JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Note your wording: Musk was a Democrat and describes himself as politically moderate. However, recent actions speak louder than self-descriptions or past tendencies. His recent endorsements of far-right political parties and amplification of extremist content on X demonstrate a clear shift toward far-right ideologies. Even this Wikipedia page and others acknowledge his movement toward the right wing.

Furthermore, your immediate characterization of this proposal as an 'attempt to cast a slur' lacks substantiation. I have made a concerted effort to provide evidence supporting my claims, including Musk’s specific actions and their alignment with far-right ideologies. This is not polemic but a factual observation backed by reputable sources. Gnarledge (talk) 08:09, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

What he describes himself doesn't really matter per WP:PRIMARY.

However, to the original point – to begin with we need sources that use this wording before we can even start the discussion. — Czello ^(music) 08:31, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

@JamieBrown2011

no, it is not only a slur because it is backed by political theory and documented evidence.

concrete wording can can be discussed.

maybe he is only a far right activist by German standards but not by American standards. Aberlin2 (talk) 15:28, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. JacktheBrown (talk) 13:17, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

@JacktheBrown what is your reason to oppose? Aberlin2 (talk) 15:43, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose and I'm sorry but this just looks like it was directly copied and pasted out of Chat GPT. Big Thumpus (talk) 04:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Big Thumpus

This is a criticism of the other person's writing style and could also be due to the fact that the person is not a native English speaker, but what about the substantive reasons for your rejection? Aberlin2 (talk) 15:47, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Per FMSky's comment below: WP:COMMONSENSE Big Thumpus (talk) 00:17, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

The most you could do is "politician", this applies even to the losers of WW2. Kenneth Kho (talk) 06:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Far right or just self-centered? I think his politics are like Trump's, whatever they need to be to get what he wants. No he is not far-right. 16:01, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I love this radical leftist propaganda. 2601:18C:8183:D410:E04D:DD95:1048:461E (talk) 20:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:COMMONSENSE --FMSky (talk) 00:57, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

@Gnarledge I support this change with some restrictions.

of course this article is in General unbalanced but there should be sources to back this claim in the article. And then the sentence could be something like: ... "is described as far-right activist by multiple..."

hth Aberlin2 (talk) 15:40, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

UTC)

Oppose JamieBrown2011 (talk) 06:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose he's a normie 90's liberal. "Far-right" means racial purity and goose-stepping military worship and answering the JQ and all that nonsense, none of which I've ever heard Musk espouse.103.85.36.186 (talk)

References

Why only ‘American’

Musk is introduced as ‘American’ - not South African-Canadian-American. He still has all three citizenships, and that order tracks his life. Why not include all three? Harsimaja (talk) 03:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

See FAQ. Slatersteven (talk) 11:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Elon Musk is an American

MOS:CONTEXTBIO provides the following.

"The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was such when they became notable."

It is clear that the context is American, and it is not complex. Remember, Wikipedia is not written for the editors who are experts about Elon Musk, Wikipedia is written for readers who look up about Elon Musk the first time. As such, our goal is to orient the readers, not to prevent edit wars between editors. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:20, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

He seems to have Canadian, South African, and US nationality. Slatersteven (talk) 19:23, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

He is currently permanent resident of the US since 1995 which is the entire time he becomes notable. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Which is irrelevant as we are discussing his nationality, not his residency. Slatersteven (talk) 19:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

"The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable." There is only one - American. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

He is not primarily known for being an American, he is primarily known as a businessman. If you take that away, his being American would, not get him an article. I also more that many sources discus his status as a tri-national. Time for others to chip in. Slatersteven (talk) 19:37, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

He is primarily known as an American businessman, he is not that famous elsewhere. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

We've been through this question countless times on this talk page. MOS:CONTEXTBIO says "should usually", not "must", and the long-standing consensus is that his nationalities should not be included in the opening sentence, as set out in the FAQ above. Rosbif73 (talk) 07:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

The point is that the FAQ is wrong in saying his nationalities is complex. As you noted, MOS:CONTEXTBIO simply says that he "should usually" be called American businessman. WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE applies. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Sources seem to indicate that he gave up his Canadian and South African citizenships when he became an American (that would be normal too, its really rare for someone to keep a second citizenship and succesfully naturalize in the US), meaning that he was never a trinational and is currently only a national of one country (USA). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 07:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Please produce one that he has, anything else is OR. Slatersteven (talk) 10:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I can't find any that definitively state it one way or another, it seems that Musk is very private with his immigration history and what he says in public is apparently contradictory. I also would note that you're demanding sources but never actually provided any in the first place, what is your source that his status is tri-national? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

We have sources saying that at one time he was at least one of each, this is why we do not say it. We do not know. Slatersteven (talk) 11:09, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

So we do not have sources which discusses his tri-national status? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:56, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Make a list of the most notable South Africans in history and he would be in the top 5 among Mandela, Tutu, de Klerk, and Theron… Trillfendi (talk) 21:27, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Investment in Bihar India

Bihar 103.170.70.59 (talk) 11:26, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Source? Slatersteven (talk) 11:27, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

new section:attacks on Wikimedia and DEI

since Elon Musk attacked Wikipedia multiple times but auto attacked other projects and business over DEI i think this topic should get a whole section and we got start by collecting sources like the following: https://nypost.com/2024/12/25/business/elon-musk-urges-supporters-not-to-donate-to-wikipedia-over-dei/ Aberlin2 (talk) 23:05, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Stuff like this has no business in the article and referring to it as an "attack" isn't NPOV. Big Thumpus (talk) 00:20, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Simp all you want, but what other term would you use for his constant attacks on Wikipedia?

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1871443771424116954 99.189.97.98 (talk) 03:26, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

We don't have any right to interfere on how anyone or elon think of Wikipedia, everyone is free to talk however they want. This isn't for censoring and irrelevant stuffs won't be added to the articles. Thisasia  ^(Talk) 07:46, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

But isn't simply mentioning the fact that Mr. Musk - who is an very close advisor to President-Elect Donald J. Trump - called for his followers to not donate to "Wokepedia" (as he and LibsOfTikTok have called Wikipedia) until "they [meant as Wikipedia] restore balance to their editing authority"? Gelbphoenix (talk) 14:39, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

If (and when) RS report this has had some kind of impact, maybe. Slatersteven (talk) 14:47, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Come back and try having this conversation again if Elon's personal opinion results in an obvious, broader movement of people not donating to Wikipedia specifically for the reasons he gives. Until then, this is purely speculative and only serves to cast him in a negative light, and is therefore WP:UNDUE. Big Thumpus (talk) 14:50, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Oligarch

Adding the description of oligarch to Elon Musk would be the best way to describe both the power and influence he has in America. He has surpassed the qualifications and should thusly be categorized as one. NorthCentralKing (talk) 01:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:UNDUE Big Thumpus (talk) 02:31, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Agree accorsing to merriam- webster dictionary:

-oligarch: a member or supporter of oligarchy.

-oligarchy:

1

government by the few

2

a government in which a small group exercises control especially for corrupt and selfish purposes

also  : a group exercising such control

An oligarchy ruled the nation.

3

an organization under oligarchic control

Millionaires and billionaires can be considered as few in relation with the overall US population. A government entirely or with a majority of them, qualify Renzocht (talk) 03:00, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. It should be mentioned in the lead. Firecat93 (talk) 03:37, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

no work permit when working for zip2

His lack of work permit when founding zip2 is relevant given his views on open borders, the fact he didn't have US citizenship yet illegally worked for in the US on a student visa should be mentioned. It's mentioned later in the article but if the less mentions zip2, it should mention that his work for zip2 was illegal.

Alternatively the lede should strip any mention of the illegal work.

Sources: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/26/elon-musk-illegal-immigration https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2024/10/26/elon-musk-immigration-status/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2024/10/27/what-elon-musk-working-illegally-says-about-the-immigration-system/ 99.189.97.98 (talk) 03:17, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Dickipedia

Musk's proposal is still valid. So, he says, "Rename Wikipedia to Dickipedia, I'll donate 1bln$". It's a notable news and opinion about Wikipedia that shall be mentioned in his biography. 109.245.199.130 (talk) 07:45, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@109.245.199.130

yes I think it should be Mentioned in context with the other attacks on Wikipedia and DEI. could you please add a reliable source for your claim. Aberlin2 (talk) 11:34, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

I'd say this is the only context in which you could mention it. However, if there are no reliable sources for his beef with Wikipedia, and it's not notable enough to have been widely reported, it isn't worth it. One random sentence plonked in the middle of the article about something he tweeted isn't worth it. If we did that for everything he tweeted, we'd never hear the end of it.—Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 11:58, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

No, as it tells us nothing about anything. Slatersteven (talk) 11:47, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

It is covered at Views of Elon Musk#Wikipedia Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:42, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Musk political career

I wonder why Musk and Vivek political infobox was constantly removed or is DODGE not a govt agency but just an institution? Thisasia  ^(Talk) 07:58, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps it's too soon? Firecat93 (talk) 08:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Mentioning Oligarch Characterization in Lead

Musk is the wealthiest person in the world. He has been described as an oligarch by prominent commentators, academics, and experts.

Should a variant of the following sentence be included in the lead?

Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]

Does this addition have any support? Are there any other suggestions? (Some editors have argued that Musk should directly be referred to as an oligarch in the lead. I now agree with those that oppose doing so per WP:UNDUE.) Firecat93 (talk) 08:33, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support I support this course of action.

Here are just a few notable examples of prominent commentators, academics, and experts who have characterized Musk as an oligarch:

• Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman, has described Musk as a "petulant oligarch" [8] [9]
• Former United States Secretary of Labor Robert Reich has referred to Musk as an oligarch [10]
• Senior fellow at Brookings and former Senior Director at the United States National Security Council during the Trump administration, Fiona Hill, has characterized Musk as an emerging oligarch [11] [12][13]
• Ali Breland, staff writer at The Atlantic, has described Musk as "a new kind of oligarch" [14]
• United States House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.) has called Musk as an "unelected oligarch." [15]
• United States Senator Bernie Sanders (I-V.T.) has described Musk as an oligarch [16][17]
• There are many other examples in reliable sources of the term oligarch being associated with Musk, including by academics like Northwestern political scientist Jeffrey Winters, who specializes in the study of oligarchy. [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26]

This characterization has received significant media coverage, especially in the past year.

Influential Russian billionaires such as Roman Abramovich are referred to as oligarchs in their article leads, as there is consensus in RS that they are oligarchs. This is clearly not true in the case of American billionaires like Musk. However, I believe that this characterization should still be briefly described in the lead in as neutral a way as possible.

For reference, Oxford Languagues' Google dictionary defines an oligarch as, "a very rich business leader with a great deal of political influence."

From the Business Oligarch Wikipedia Page: A business leader can be considered an oligarch if some of the following conditions are satisfied:

1. uses monopolistic tactics to dominate an industry;
2. possesses sufficient political power to promote their own interests, often exacerbating income inequality and corruption, particularly through policies that benefit the elite at the expense of the majority.
3. controls multiple businesses, which intensively coordinate their activities.

Firecat93 (talk) 08:35, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per the items in Firecat93's Business Oligarch list, I see only the last example as true. This seems like the purpose of the post is a derogatory one, as the term Oligarch usually applies to Russians. It's one thing in a legacy or speculation section, but the lead??? Not a good fit. I'm sure there are even more people that would describe him as something like a benevolent genius, where I'm sure he is closer to something in the middle ground. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:01, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Fyunck(click) Regardless of whether or the label applies, Musk has been described as an oligarch by academics and experts such as Robert Reich, Paul Krugman, and Fiona Hill. I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as in the lead.

  Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.

  I've listed some examples of this characterization in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s description of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" [27] Firecat93 (talk) 17:58, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

  Look, we all know how politics is these days. If you are on the opposing side you're nothing short of Godzilla out to destroy the world. That isn't encyclopedic, and it's undue weight. As I had said, and what we do with many sports figures, in a legacy section or political enemy section, it could fit.... but it is certainly not something we would put in the lead. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:52, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

• @Firecat93 Support

reasons:

the duck test: The "duck test" is a form of reasoning that identifies something based on its observable characteristics: "If it looks, swims, and quacks like a duck, it likely is a duck".Applied to Elon Musk as an oligarch, critics like Bernie Sanders argue that Musk's immense wealth and political influence resemble characteristics of oligarchy- concentrated power in the hands of the wealthy.Musk's actions, such as pressuring lawmakers and influencing government decisions, align with this critique, fitting the "duck test" for oligarchic behavior.

International perception: sources should still be collected by expanding the relevant section of the article but internationally musk has been perceived as Oligarch.

Elon Musk has been characterized as an oligarch internationally, particularly in Germany and Britain:

Germany: Politicians like Dennis Radtke (CDU) and Anton Hofreiter (Greens) condemned Musk's endorsement of the far- right AfD, calling it a threat to democracy, "Haken dran" and "Lanz und Precht" discussed him as an Oligarch.

Britain: Media outlets like Spiked and Byline Times referred to Musk as a "foreign oligarch" due to his rumored $100 million donation to Nigel Farage's Reform UK party, raising concerns about foreign influence in politics Aberlin2 (talk) 10:32, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

By virtue of a "duck test," Musk would also be an engineer. The ASCE and other sources have described him as such. So if a "duck test" and having some quantity of experts stating as such does not justify being described as an "engineer" on this page, then neither is it sufficient for "oligarch." Foonix0 (talk) 11:53, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Foonix0 Hi, thank you for your reply.

so, when is it possible for you to describe him or to call him an Oligarch or will you always move the goalposts? Aberlin2 (talk) 16:53, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

also I'm noticing, actually the discussion is not wether he is or is not an Oligarch but If it should be mentioned that people seem to perceive him as such. what do you think about this? Aberlin2 (talk) 16:56, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Aberlin2 Yes, thank you. I apologize if I didn't make this clear: I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one in the lead.

Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.

I've listed some examples in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s characterization of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" [28] Firecat93 (talk) 17:53, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Could it be acceptable to briefly mention he has been characterized as an engineer in the lead as per your proposal?

The relevance here is that established standards should be applied in a consistent manner. It's fine to change the standard, but it should be applied consistently. If we don't, then people will pick and choose which standard they want based on their preferred preference, which presents a bias issue. Editors will favor relaxed standards for information they like, and favor more stringent ones for information they don't like. Foonix0 (talk) 01:10, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose As we do not fact know how much influence he really has, yet. Also if we have him as an Oligarch would that not mean we have to say this about every rich person who meddles in politics? What makes Musk special? Slatersteven (talk) 10:39, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

  If every other rich person who meddles in politics has been described as an oligarch in a number of reliable sources, then we can describe them as oligarchs too. That's the only criteria for describing them as such; and this is an RfC on Musk alone, not every article about a rich person who meddles in politics. He's reliably described as an oligarch, he's one of the world's richest men; I would be comfortable describing him as such in-article.—Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 12:01, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

  I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one in the lead.

  Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.

  I've listed some examples in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s characterization of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" [29] Firecat93 (talk) 17:52, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Slatersteven I wanted to make this distinction clearer, as it appears that my RfC suggestion was misinterpreted by some editors. Firecat93 (talk) 17:56, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Slatersteven

  if this discussion is only about mentioning his characterisations as Oligarch and not if he in fact is an Oligarch, then the difference is the reception. there are a lot of of rich people who are not characterized as Oligarch by scientists and influential public persons in multiple states across the globe

  hth Aberlin2 (talk) 18:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support as per my comment above.—Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 12:01, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support, WP:Spade applies, doubt any reliable source contests it. Some academic sources:

• Zelinsky 2024: By supporting the Reddit crowd, Musk performed a remarkable persona in-between his elite status as one of the tech oligarchs, at that time the world’s richest person, and his support of the populist cause against the routinized and supposedly immoral establishment.
• Allcorn 2023
• Waller 2024: Yet the oversize personality of figures such as Musk and the clear trend towards the oligarchization of near-Earth space settlement…
• Lipsitz 2024: On the question of Khan, it seems likelier that he’ll take his cues from an oligarch like Musk than from his own vice president.
• Kampmark 2024

Kowal2701 (talk) 13:09, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Strongly oppose While I personally find it very interesting that the "oligarch" rhetoric ramped up as soon as Musk aligned himself with Trump's campaign, outside of that tidbit Musk's influence on the US government is being greatly exaggerated and this push to label him as an oligarch feels blatantly partisan.

Per Firecat93's comments above, which "monopolistic tactics" are being used to "dominate" an industry? Which industry? How much political power does Musk actually, legally possess? Even if he does possess political power in some way, how is he using it to promote his own interests and thereby exacerbating income inequality and corruption? Which of his businesses are "intensively" coordinating their activities?

Labeling a living person as an "oligarch" is a serious step and should only be taken if there is abundant proof, not just a relatively small collection of highly opinionated political commentators who have spent most of the last decade assigning derogatory titles to people who disagree with them politically. Big Thumpus (talk) 14:06, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

The FT is probably the best source we could have, hence why it’s £40 a month. See From Putin to Musk: the making of a modern-day oligarch (2023), I can’t access it but that’ll answer most of your questions Kowal2701 (talk) 15:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Does the monthly cost of a source indicate its quality? I can't access it either, so unless someone who has a subscription can provide some quotes from the article for us to analyze it's not very useful. Big Thumpus (talk) 15:30, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

It’s useful in that a highly reputable source supports the nom, I used to have access to it, but agreed quotes would be very welcome Kowal2701 (talk) 16:20, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

A plain text version of the article's body is available at https://pastebin.com/wKTThszJ.

"First, oligarchs are not simply tycoons. The latter are rich business people who may not have any political power. Lingelbach told me that Elon Musk went from tycoon to oligarch when he bought Twitter last year. The social media company, now renamed X, shapes opinion on events from Ukraine to Israel — often by platforming falsehoods. Today, adds Lingelbach, "Musk is one of the five or 10 most consequential oligarchs in our world."

QRep2020 (talk) 18:33, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay so in that article, the person referring to Elon Musk as an "oligarch", David Lingelbach, just so happens to be the author of the new book the article is entirely about? The article that even states that the definition of oligarch has been "reworked" by the two authors of said book, in order to accommodate the actions of people like Musk? Big Thumpus (talk) 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Big Thumpus & Kowal2701 - here is an archived copy of the article that is accessible. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:03, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for this Big Thumpus (talk) 20:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Kowal2701 I am not advocating that we "label" Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one by some academics and politicians in the lead. Firecat93 (talk) 18:35, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Big Thumpus To clarify, I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one in the lead.

Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.

I've listed some examples in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s characterization of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" [30] Firecat93 (talk) 17:54, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate the clarification but I still oppose as the opinion of a few politically biased commentators - or at the very least, commentators who may hold negative personal opinions of Musk - is not appropriate for an encyclopedia and certainly not for the lead of an article about a living person. If, say, history rolls on and it turns out in several years that Musk does in fact end up using any political power he might gain to enrich himself, increase corruption, etc. then it would be fine to expand the article. Doing so out of pure speculation before the fact gives the appearance of mud-slinging at the very least. Big Thumpus (talk) 19:56, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:TOOSOON and rushing this to a RFC after four comments shows a fundamental misunderstanding of WP:RFCBEFORE. Some time needs to pass before we can have a real conversation about this topic. Musk and Trump's current association is being sensationalized and what that means is mostly a lot of speculation for which it appears some of the arguments above have decided to indulge. We do not have a WP:CRYSTALBALL. This is a biography, not a news article. Nemov (talk) 14:48, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Nemov Just as a clarification, I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one in the lead.

  Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.

  I've listed some examples in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s characterization of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" [31] Firecat93 (talk) 17:54, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

  Your clarification doesn't change my argument. People engaging in name calling and speculaction falls considerably short of justification for inclusion here. Nemov (talk) 22:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose oligarch, as the lead of our article on Oligarchy states that it's rule by the few, which I don't think really applies here. I would Support plutocrat. Support after clarification from nom Feeglgeef (talk) 16:13, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of whether or not it applies, he has been described as an oligarch by academics and experts such as Robert Reich, Paul Krugman, and Fiona Hill. I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one in the lead.

Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.

I've listed some examples in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s characterization of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" [32] Firecat93 (talk) 17:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Feeglgeef Firecat93 (talk) 17:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I've changed my comment. Feeglgeef (talk) 17:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose adding it to the lead. The term "oligarch" isn't featured significantly enough in the article body (see WP:SUMMARY) or in reliable sources (see WP:DUE) to include in the lead in my opinion. Doing a keyword search on the article's current references, I found 336 sources containing the word "billionaire" and 9 containing the word "oligarch". – Anne drew 19:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose inclusion in the lead. This seems like basically just unnecessary name-calling. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:47, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Attacks on wikipedia

obviously it's on going but how he feels about us and other "legacy media" should be added 172.101.136.35 (talk) 04:33, 27 December 2024 (UTC)